Demyth Turns the Page with Ella Mcleod

Alexa play obsessed with me....

In this episode Lauren and Charlotte talk to Ella McLeod about "Andromeda". Obviously a huge part of the episode focuses around embracing and celebrating her heritage and they dive into why she's been whitewashed so much. They also get very into how Ella took making everything gayer to the next level with her romance choices.

Obligatory spoilers included with plot points.... the ending... and shag marry kill

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:24

Hi, I'm Charlotte.

SPEAKER_03 0:26

And I'm Lauren. Our pronouns are she, her.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

This is D Myth Turns the Page.

SPEAKER_03 0:31

Our special episodes where we challenge the stories we already know.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

We search for the most beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 0:37

And we pay for our hubris with E. S. McLeod. So hello Ella. Thank you so much for joining us.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Hi, I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_03 0:55

I mean, before we get started, let's learn about you. So please introduce yourself for our listeners.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

So my name is Ella, also known as E.S. McLeod. My pronouns are she, her. I'm a Pisces. I live in London. I'm a cat mom. I like ramen. Is that is that is that sufficient? Do we do you want more? I can keep going if you want me to keep going.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

How are we not friends already? Now we are. Well, what sparked your Greek myth obsession? We're presuming that you have, because you have written a fantastic book based on a Greek myth.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Wouldn't it be so funny if at this point I was like, I actually don't like Greek myth at all. I'm not interested. I don't honestly, some of the negative reviews I've had of this book would you would you would think that I uh I I I hate the genre and I've made it my mission to disrespect it. Um no, I absolutely love Greek myth. I've loved Greek myth my whole life. I think that I have the story that so many of us have, which is just being obsessed with mythology as a child. I had all of the Greek myth books. Um it wasn't just Greek myth, I loved like Egyptian mythology and folklore in general. So I I I it's really difficult for me to point. Do you know what I think it was? Now I'm really thinking about it. When I was seven, um my school we did a school play of Theseus and the Minotaur, and it was like, oh god, this is all making sense now. And it was a retelling of Theseus and the Minotaur, and in that retelling, um the Theseus on his way to Minos, um, to meet King Minos in Crete, um, meets this family of women called the Peplos sisters, and they come along on the journey with him, and they are the ones that defeat the Minotaur. I've no idea who wrote this retelling. I don't know if it was my teachers or if they found it in some resource online, but I played Theseus, and like the joke was that instead of being this hero, he was like kind of a coward and not very good at anything, and it was this like cool band of sisters that actually defeat the Minotaur and then let him take the credit because they can't be bothered with the fame. And it's literally only occurring to me now that this is probably where not only my obsession with Greek mythology came from, but also my obsession with like retellings and subverting narratives. Um, that's hilarious. And actually, around a similar time, I read um Roll Dahl's Revolt Revolting Rhymes, which does a similar thing of like reinventing fairy tales, which is also something that I've um done in previous stories. So yeah, I think that I've loved Greek myth my whole life, and I I love old stories being reinterpreted in new ways as well.

SPEAKER_03 3:38

And we have had countless myth retellings on the podcast before. It's one of our absolute bread and butter things. And you've done a book about a character that we've not really had, which I love that we're getting some new sort of representation out there. So, Andromeda, talk about the inspiration for this retelling.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

So, it was a few things. Um, like I said, I love Greek myth retelling. I if it given that this is uh an audio medium, I am a woman of colour. Uh, I'm black, my family from the Caribbean. And obviously, like a lot of Greek myth Greek myth stories that I read didn't have black people in them, which is fine. Um, but it it it slightly misrepresented a the classical world, right? Because I think a lot of people would assume that the classical world was incredibly Eurocentric, and actually it wasn't, it was so far-reaching, it was a global, like the ancient Greece was a global empire, right? And so um it as I read more about Greek mythology as I grew up and came to realize that there are stories that don't just take place in Europe and don't just take place in Greece, that was really interesting to me. I was like, oh my god, I can't, I can't believe that I didn't know that. Um and then when a few years ago I was in Paris, um, I was at the Louvre, and I saw a painting of Perseus and Andromeda. I think it was Titian, it might have been Rubens, I can never remember, but I think it was Titian. And either or they're both my op because they both did the same thing, which was whitewash Andromeda. So they paint her white, and then you know, in the notes it says Andromeda Princess of Ethiopia. And I was like, huh. That's weird. Why is she white? So um I then went away, did some research, realized that in a lot of the classical sources um that that tell the Perseus and Andromeda story, she's described as dark-skinned, and then did some more reading and kind of realised that Renaissance artists just basically didn't believe that this beautiful woman worthy of being the wife of Perseus could possibly be dark-skinned because they were painting in a post-colonial or a kind of colonial context, so that annoyed me, unsurprisingly. Um and I sort of sat with that and stewed on it and sulked about it and would tell anyone that would listen about it. And then not long after that, I read The Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller and loved that book down, like oh, I love that book so much. And it just the the two ideas sort of coalesced in my mind. Um, this idea that there was this beautiful black woman that doesn't get enough spotlight even in her own story. We don't know a lot about her own perspective of her of the events that surround her. We we hear about her mother's hubris, we hear about Poseidon's rage, we hear about Perseus' rescue, but and she's at the centre of it all, but she's quite silent at the centre of it all. So um I I thought a lot about giving her her voice back, and I was really inspired by the way that you know um in in stories of the Trojan War, you hear a lot about Patroclus and his sort of his love for Achilles, his loyalty for Achilles, but he also doesn't really have much of a voice in that story, and Madeline Miller readdressed that. So that was sort of the sort of spark of the idea. Um, and then it kind of went from there.

SPEAKER_03 7:00

I don't know how old you are, but it does feel like that mean girls quote. If you're from Africa, why are you white? It absolutely does. That's so funny.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

How old do you think I am?

SPEAKER_03 7:08

I feel like you're a bit younger than me.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

I'm 30.

SPEAKER_03 7:11

I don't know if that's no, you are yeah, okay, you're quite a bit younger.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

Okay. Um, but yeah, big mean girls fan. And yeah, if you're from Africa, why are you white? That is how I felt when I saw that for sure. Um, 100%. I had Karen in my head. Loud, loud.

SPEAKER_03 7:27

I feel the keyboard warriors getting ready when you started talking about this.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Oh, the keyboard warriors have been coming for me, but that's okay. Like, I like I'm scrappy, I'll take it.

SPEAKER_03 7:39

So, as you said, Andromeda is not, as we were led to believe, white, but she is actually black, and we have her on your cover in all of her glory. And I we have proofs, we have physical proofs, but I feel like the real thing is gonna be so gorgeous with all foiling.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Yeah, it's stunning, it's so stunning. Do you wanna do you wanna see? Hold on.

SPEAKER_03 7:57

I feel like we need to see. There she is. There we go.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

That's how it's meant to look. Lovely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

She's so pretty. They did a great job on the back jacket's gorgeous as well. It's got like the Nile, and yeah, they did a great job. Um, I love it.

SPEAKER_03 8:13

How clearly you're happy.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

Very happy, very happy.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

How does it feel to see that? To see your vision on a book cover.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

It's very surreal. Um we're like it's this is my adult debut, but I've written, I've uh written other I've written other books. I have two YA novels and a picture book. For some reason, this one has hit me the hard, like the it coming to life has hit me the hardest. I think because like with my first two books, I was such a baby, like I didn't know what I was doing. Like it, I was really writing by the seat in my pants. Like it it felt like a fever dream, and also because I I got my first book deal in lockdown, and it was mad seeing it kind of all come to fruition, but this was so intentional, this process. Like, I I I knew how to write a book by this point, kind of. You kind of never really know how to write a book because every book is different, but I knew I could do it because I'd done it before, and so it was so I was like, I know exactly who she is, I know exactly what this story is, and the writing process was like the most fun I've ever had writing something. I really feel like the story just sort of flowed through me, and so I feel like I've been really like present in the process in a way that I wasn't with my first two books because it was so like writing my first two books felt like such a, like I said, such a fever dream, such a haze. Like I was learning so much on the go, but I remember the first time I sat down to write the story. I remember so many of the moments where I was doing other things and stealing time to write chapters. I remember the kind of final push where I sat down for six weeks and basically wrote the whole thing. Like, yeah, I just I feel very I love this book so much, I'm really proud of it. And so seeing it on myself, I'm like, I can't believe I did it. Like I can't, I can't believe we got here. Um yeah, I'm just like, yeah, I'm really proud of proud of it.

SPEAKER_02 10:21

We were impressed with how much of a story you created from what really very little we know of Androm Andromeda and her story. So what was your research process like?

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Oh, like rigorous, um, really rigorous. I as you say, there's there's very little we have scraps and fragments, really. Um I basically just read everything that mentions her, and you'd be surprised by like that didn't take as long as you maybe would think it would, because like I said, there isn't a ton. Um so I I I read basically yeah, everything that that mentions her, every kind of version of her story I could find, and then I also did a lot of reading about like ancient geography because the the borders were different, they're different names for different places, and you know, a lot of like Hesiod and Herodotus, and like you know, an understanding of what ancient Ethiopia was to the Greeks and what it how they perceived ancient Ethiopia and the legends about her kingdom and her country, and um so it was focused on her, but also trying to create a really rich sense of time and place was also really important to me.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

And throughout the book, you manage to elegantly weave in other myths into the story. You know, we have Cassio Payer and um Andromeda's grandmother whose name escapes Akira Way, yeah. Akiraway they are telling her stories and for for different reasons throughout the novel, but it made me think of women telling tales and sharing sharing not necessarily gossip but skills and no low-key gossip as well for sure. Yeah, just like around around the hearth, you know, in the home, like while they'll be doing something. And you know what what made you decide to tell those myths in this way rather than have like a traditional teacher telling her?

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Yeah, I think it's exactly as you said, like it is low-key gossip. And I think that for women, I was gonna say for women in the ancient world, but also I think in many ways for women today, like knowledge is our is power, right? And the way that we share knowledge with each other is power. And as you said, for different reasons in different ways, but like Akiraway and Cassiopeia, like the thing that they know they can give Andromeda are stories that are going to equip her for the life that she needs to lead, and I think that it was important to me to show those, and like women relationships in general are really central to this story, and I think that um it was really important for me to to show the ways in which women were among like themselves amongst themselves, because so often in classical stories we get the male perspective, we get stories about men and how men are interacting and what men are telling each other, and I really wanted to spotlight the the quiet rebellion and the quiet power of women sharing information and sharing stories as warnings, as guidance, as acts of love, as acts of um subversion, and so it it it to I think what I was sort of trying to do is show how storytelling is political that's sort of in in inherent in the story, and particularly amongst women, storytelling is political.

SPEAKER_02 14:01

And that is something that that comes through in your books where the male characters are the secondary characters, yeah, they are.

SPEAKER_03 14:12

One thing that I found kind of unusual, so a lot of retellings will get quotes, and usually it's from source material, relevant or sort of around the story, but you don't do that. We have quotes from Audrey Lord's A Woman Speaks.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:29

So why was that choice of quotes for you when most people wouldn't go that route? They'd pick, I don't know, something from Hesiod or something from Ovid or whatever is relevant.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

Because I'm just I like I just want men to shush, like um I'm I'm being a bit flippant. Um, I'm not disrespecting like Hesiod or Herodotus or Ovid or obviously like big fans of all their work, but this just wasn't about them, is the truth. And um when I read that poem initially, I've I've always loved Audrey Lorde so much. Um first of all, like the poem is called A Woman Speaks, and that's what this story is. It's a woman speaking. Secondly, my working title for this book was Leave My Shape Behind, which was is a quote from that poem, and it's really speaking to this idea of like legacy and what is a woman's legacy, and a woman's legacy being a woman's legacy is her shape, is her face, is her physical form, because that's how women were and still kind of are immortalized. And I think that when I was reading The Song of Achilles, there's so much in that book about legacy and immortality and fame and how men seek glory, and men seek glory on the battlefield by being shrewd political actors, by you know, um, endangering their lives and dying in a blaze of glory or whatever. Um, and women are made immortal by their beauty. And what does that what does that mean? What does that mean for a woman to be made immortal by her beauty? Something that she has no control over, something that she has no agency over, something that has nothing to do with her innate sense of self. Um, and the irony for me of Andromeda being that her beauty is what damns her, her beauty is what makes her famous, and then we, in our modern day telling her story, look at her as a white person, and so she's immortalized for her beauty, and we get that wrong, and the irony of that. So, this idea of leaving your shape behind was really present for me when I was writing. Um, and then the poem generally is about a kind of enduring legacy of black womanhood. Um, there are some amazing lines about that lit like that, like a magical, spiritual, enduring lineage. Um, you know, Audre Lord talks about, you know, my sisters who are witches into homie, and you know, I'm made of old magic, beware my smile, like all of these ideas of women being these wells of um power and resourcefulness, um that I just I thought I thought it just felt so relevant. Um I also just always want to tell people to read more Audrey Lord because I think she's amazing. So my kind of hope is that if if someone hadn't heard of her somehow and then read my book and was like, oh, I should go and look at more of her poetry, that's also kind of a win for me.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

And it it kind of reminds me of the Medusa story, which you do reference again as a story being told to Andromeda. And yeah, my take on that story is someone who is aging out of beauty, she was beautiful, and then she became an old crone and and not bangable, basically.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

Totally, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh I love the idea of her aging out of beauty, yeah. I think the the Medusa story is it's told to Andromeda kind of as a warning, like a a warning of about the the the dangers of being beautiful, but also I kind of wanted to recontextualize it because something that I always found really interesting is the fact that uh in most versions of the story Athena punishes Medusa for her rape by turning her into a a monster um and for me in my in my mind the two things that didn't make sense were uh well number one, uh Athena is supposed to be the like divine embodiment of justice, and that's such an injustice, like that doesn't that doesn't make sense to me. And only only ancient misogynist men would see a woman being punished for her rape as just so the the male voice in that version of the story is so loud to me. Um and then the other thing being it's kind of sick that Medusa can like will never be her ever again, right? Like she Athena arms her, she she empowers her. Like, who gives a fuck about her face? Like, who can I swear? Is that okay? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Who gives a fuck about being beautiful? Really? Like, who actually gives a fuck? What what Athena gives Medusa is so much more important, it's the ability to rage back at anyone that dares look on her and make sure no one ever looks on her without her consent again, and that to me is not a punishment, that's like a gift, right? Like, so I I wanted to recontextualise that story, and I feel like it sort of sets the tone for the journey that Andromeda goes on. Um because yeah, I I I I I find the Medusa story really, really interesting.

SPEAKER_03 19:50

Let's go back to what you said about Andromeda you seeing Andromeda as white in these paintings and in this painting, and then it said princess of Ethiopia. Because I saw paintings of her as white at first, and then I saw a picture of her being as as she should be as black, and it was kind of like a huh moment. And so it's something we've that me and Charlotte discussed both on and off podcasts, and something I've thought about, and it kind of surprises me in a way that she is depicted as white because white people love to be white saviours, and I know it was white saviour wasn't a thing, but we did have a civilizing mission because obviously, as superior white people, superior Christian white people, we have to go and spread this to savages because clearly the people of Africa are not are not doing great without us, so we own and civilized them. So, what more of a perfect image than this handsome white male Greek going and rescuing a black woman in distress? It's the perfect symbolism, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yet they didn't do that.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

So, kind of what are your thoughts on that? It's such a good point, like you'd really think that that propaganda would have would have popped off amongst Renaissance artists, but fundamentally I just think that even though even even though that that impulse I think to yet always sort of um present white male Europe Europeanness as this like heroic force, um fundamentally Andromeda ends up married to Perseus, the mother of his children, and I just I just think like old racists would have found that gross. Like the idea of like an interracial marriage and in and and like mixed race children, I just think they would have found that disgusting. And the idea also that Andromeda was so beautiful that you know, Perseus, he's he's tired, he's just killed the gorgon, he's covered in mud and blood, and he's he just wants to get home to his mum. And like the idea that a black woman. an African woman would be so beautiful that he stops and goes to help her. Like I just don't think that would have computed in their tiny colonial little minds. So um that's that is my I mean that's my theory on on why they didn't present her in that way.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

But I think that it's a it's it's a valid question for sure because you'd think that they would they would love that but no they just couldn't conceive of her being that beautiful and and maybe there's a part of it of they like the culture they want to take everything a lot you know a lot of Greek culture was also influenced by Egyptians.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Yeah yeah yeah for sure they don't but they don't want to look like them no no no no no no no no no no yeah absolutely and let let's talk about sort of black beauty because obviously Andromeda is stunning and you you do things like you talk about the darkness of her skin which goes against what society unfortunately still does view as undesirable and if we look at classical descriptions of let's take Helen as like the ultimate beauty she's described as white armed and we know a lot of that means oh she didn't have to go outside and work so her skin could be so pale she's not actually getting a tan from having to do say manual work outside so how are you deciding which aspects of Andromeda to highlight in order to emphasize her beauty not just as a woman but as a black woman I think I mean I was just so conscious of wanting to like stick a finger up at beauty standards like that was that was really at the forefront of my mind so absolutely her dark skin I talk a lot about her hair like the cloud of her hair like you know this this idea of her having this like thick dense curling afro like um you know really yeah just really highlighting the fact that her hair isn't like silky textured isn't straight um I really I really imagined her as like a woman in a bigger body like and I talk a lot about and which also just sort of makes sense for a a more kind of a beauty standard that's based on an idea of abundance right like she's wealthy she can afford to eat well um she's being fed all the best food and so she's a curvy girl like she's tits and ass like that is how I imagine her and again because I'm thinking about um the narrowness of beauty standards and and and just always trying to play with that always trying to subvert that um so yeah I I think that there's so so much of what I wanted to do with this book was like challenge expectations and I think that and there's other ways and I'm sure we'll get into it other ways that I do that as well particularly with her love interest um but I think at the heart of that other than me just being a contrary little bitch is that I the sort of the thought that kept occurring particularly in the aftermath of seeing that painting was well if all of these stories are written by men and we know that some men at least have been wrong about what she actually looked like then what else could we have been wrong about? What else exists in the margins? What what is the story that isn't the main text that we have been told by dead white guys um and and so and part of that for me was yeah what what does beauty mean challenging what beauty means well there is one dead white guy that did seem to appreciate her beauty.

SPEAKER_03 25:38

So does Cassia Pia dress Andromeda in white because Ovid talked about Andromeda looking good in white because in your words he is a simp for a dark skinned baddie he is a simp for a dark skinned baddie that I'm that's that's canon.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

No one can tell me differently um but yeah so I I mean yeah I that definitely was an Ovid inspiration like Andromeda being in white because I just thought that's a fun reference to Ovid. And also the sort of symbolism of her being virginal and and and and pure whatever that means um but also just yeah because dark skinned girls look so hot in white that's just true the contrast laps so I was just like Cassiopeia would know that she knows what what makes her girl look good I wanted to ask you about Andromeda's beauty in regards to what I perceived in the book as a lot of loneliness that she felt for sure and you know she seems isolated she's look she's isolated anyway because she's royal and she's probably isolated as well because she's female but it seemed like she was isolated with an extra layer because you know people stop and stare they whisper even the fish you know she has an effect on the fish so is there a parallel to her beauty and the levels of isolation that she feels yeah absolutely I think it's funny so in reading a lot of Greek myths and also like I studied a lot of like Greek literature particularly ancient Greek plays when I was at uni um the thing that the gods and demigods anyone that's chasing divinity any character that's chasing divinity really wants to be singular like the idea they want to be the only one and they want to have their domain and it's theirs and they don't want to share it. They're very jealous and possessive and they want to be worshipped singularly and Andromeda knows her whole life that the things that singularity is so lonely it's so lonely being the only one like her and she's really jealous of the girls at the palace that she kind of grows up with at a distance from because they are not singular and therefore they have each other and and community is so important and later on in the story story she starts to build that for herself and it's really healing for her and really healing at a time when she needs it because because I mean and I think this is also just some myself coming in like I love female company like I'm such a such a girl's girl like I love like having strong relationships with women and I don't know what my life would be like if I hadn't had that and uh I really just felt how lacking and empty her life would be um if if she if she hadn't been able to experience that and it it made sense for her character for me that that she hadn't because because yeah grow growing up a princess and so beautiful and also but like she's weird like she's kind of descended from nymphs and likes to be in the mud and that's not very princess like and no one really understands her um and it's why for example like the relationship with her grandmother is so central because her grandmother's kind of her only friend um when she's growing up because her grandmother kind of gets her you know well talking about her mother now Cassiopeia much is made of Cassiopeia kind of leaving behind her old gods yeah and there's a there's a part in the book where it says she wasn't permitted to bring any anything of her old life to her new one so how realistic to life do you think that was you know would it have been expected the norm is it something specific to your character's marriage I think I mean I really it's it's very specific to this character I think in in trying to find so okay I'll I'll I'll explain my thought process with Cassiopeia. So one of my big bugbears with the an original myth as we have often been told it is so Cassiopeia boasts that Andromeda is more beautiful than Poseidon's Nereids and rains down holy terror on her kingdom because of it. And I just could never get past the idea that like no sane mortal woman would ever say something so fucking stupid. And it to me just sounds like it just it just sounds like the kind of thing a man would invent like silly boastful women say silly things and anger the gods because they're so silly and vain and that it's just misogyny to me. So I really wanted to figure out like who Cassiopeia was that she would say something so dangerous and overblown and and where I landed was she knows exactly what she's doing. She's a shrewd political player she wants something she wants to gain something from saying this. So that was sort of the the root of of the conflict in the story was I just don't believe that Casiopeya misspoke like I think that does her such a disservice and really denies her agency and I wanted to give her agency so then I started thinking well to if she if she knows what she's doing and she knows it's dangerous she has to really believe that it's her only option and and what has happened to her in her life to make her feel so disempowered and therefore what has made her someone that is so desperate for power for her daughter and so desperate to like give her daughter what she didn't have um so that was that was sort of there when I was writing this character and then I was reading a bit about Cassia Peyer in lots of versions of the story she's um her family come from Jaffa which is modern Palestine and um at the time the region the the kind of rough time I set the story at the region was ruled by um uh the the new kingdom of Egypt um there was a a a viceroy um ruling in that in that territory um on behalf of the new kingdom on behalf of the pharaoh and so I was thinking okay so then uh a a young woman from this time in this place would would she have been raised with the Egyptian gods? Would that have been what she was taught and if she's moneyed if her dad is like an ally of the Egyptians like yes she probably would have been um but I still needed it I still wanted it to make sense that she would end up um marrying a king of Ethiopia and I read um there was some sort of suggestion that maybe part of her family were from Ethiopia originally um or from that part of the world originally so she really to me was like a manifestation of this conflict of all of these different um all of these different pantheons but really by which I mean all of these different empires right and the struggle of empire over territory um but if you're going to marry a king who is descended from one set of gods there's no way you're gonna be allowed to worship another set of gods because women don't get what they want and you know what you do and who you worship and who you're impressed by is dictated by your husband so it was it was a combination of like um a geographical thing and a gender thing but also a Cassiopeia thing and because there's a bit where they draw the eye of Horace and then they hide it.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

So it's it's like a silent kind of protest.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

Yeah for sure for sure and she's still you know she she she says all the right things publicly she knows like I said she's a true political player she knows what she's doing she knows how she has to appear she's the queen and like goddamn is she the queen uh but she is still herself and I'm so I think it's a big thing for me in writing and in reading is making sure that all my side characters feel very much like the protagonists of their own story and so I did a lot of thinking about like what what's Cassio Paya's story? Who is she in all of this and who she is is someone that is still you know a princess of oranges she's still like loyal to who she was before and she still keeps um what she was raised with and where she was raised close close to her and in her heart um even if she can't kind of do it publicly um so yeah it's a bit of bit of history bit of myth bit of artistic license which is the fun of this space right you get to combine all of those things don't tell the keyboard warriors that the keyboard warriors are already mad at me for making my protagonist gay Lauren so I'm just like look it's fine it's fine the people that will get it will get it and the people that won't I I just don't have the energy to care.

SPEAKER_03 34:56

I need to channel that in my everyday life actually so much is made of Ethiopia and this is the Ethiopia in your story not Ethiopia as we know it now totally yeah it's made so much is made of like them having a lot of riches it is a land of abundance and they do a lot of hosting and a lot of the friendships that they seem to make seem to be more down to Cassia Pia rather than Andromeda's dad whose name he mentioned like once at that towards the end so I don't even remember it and I don't even care what his name whatever he could have said anything I text Lauren and I was like has has she mentioned the dad's name yeah I mean I mentioned it a couple times like he's the king before he's anything else and that's kind of the problem isn't it with him but he seems resentful and this is later and I'm not doing this in a spoilery way but he does seem resentful later that it's all down to her that they have these friendships but he doesn't want war.

SPEAKER_01 35:59

It's like what do you want because people otherwise people are going to invade you so you either need to be strong or you need to have friendships with people right so do you think this makes him unusual that it's like it's deluded that you can just chill in your rich little place and think you do nothing diplomatically whether it is war or friendship I think he is very much resting on the laurels of his like divine lineage and I think he's just complacent in the idea that yeah my my my mum is a a river goddess my my granddad is a god like no one's gonna touch me and I think um yeah I think I think that's that's his thinking you know he's like which which is what and so much of who he is as a character is is empty bluster and all of that empty bluster comes from but I'm Godborn you know that that cockiness so um it is kind of deluded um but he the the conflict in his in his and Cassio Pay's relationship the sort of her being ambitious but being a woman and not being able to do anything about it and him being unambitious but a man um and not needing to anything about it because he's a man and he's cushy um that was really kind of fun to write and something I was really interested in um yeah that complacency. I think he's a pussy but such a pussy such a pussy we'll we'll talk about him later but I liked that Perseus was almost like the complete opposite yeah yeah yeah I had a lot of fun writing Perseus um we can talk about Perseus I I yeah I had a lot of fun about writing Perseus I think that I haven't really talked about Perseus much I feel like um because I'm I'm I I mean we can talk about spoilers in this episode which is really fun for me online generally I'm really conscious of not I've talked quite a lot about the fact that Andromeda's main love interest in this story isn't Perseus. There are people that aren't very happy with me because of that. I don't care uh but um yeah I think you know Perseus is such an interesting character he's been written in so many ways I just kind of had fun making him like a bit of a golden retriever boy like he's he's just some guy he's kind of a himbo like it's he isn't he he isn't a bad guy um he's just he's just some guy he's he's just you know he's just like a he he grew up poor and became a prince he's gassed by everything and I don't think that makes him terrible because he's just kind of doing what he's told um and and yeah he was he was he was really fun to write we do have a lot of thoughts about him which we will get into and one last question before we get into spoilers I well it's not really a question really it's more a discussion point I maybe I'm reading too much into this I want to talk about the significance of names oh yeah definitely not reading too much into it because obviously we've got Andromeda who's also called Maida Little Queen she she gets given different names throughout the book we've got Ceto Cetus also called worm for both derogatory and and um affectionately you know like we've also mentioned that Cassiopeia is is named but her dad isn't named as much so what is the significance of of different names oh god honestly I could do a whole podcast episode on this um I think the main things really are like who names you that's the thing for me is like who is naming you and where it comes from um so yeah like Cepheus doesn't get his name doesn't get mentioned very much because no one's really in his intimacy like he's king and he's father and he's his role and he's his job and that's kind of the summation of who he is right like he because that's how that's the image that he projects the world is like I'm the king and I'm your father and I must be re respected. I'm the patriarch and that's you know there's no one really to call him Cepheus do you know what I mean um there's no one in his intimacy um so it's for me like the name itself is important but it's it's who is naming you and why and why they're naming you that that's kind of crucial I think.

SPEAKER_03 40:41

As Charlotte just said that was her last discussion point before we got into spoilers. So welcome we are now in the spoiler section and if you haven't read Andromeda please go and read the book because there are changes to Andromeda's myth that we will be discussing in detail now and you want to enjoy it as you read the book and not have us spoil it for you.

SPEAKER_02 41:01

So come back and rejoin the episode when you have finished one thing that we did want to to to ask about which just to kick off our spoiler section is gold was commonplace but silver was not so what does silver represent in your story?

SPEAKER_01 41:17

You know we've got the silver jewelry yeah so I mean it's I think there's a line because I'm I'm listening to the audiobook because I've just been sent the audiobook which is really really exciting um and is weird because it suddenly doesn't feel like the book I wrote anymore because it's someone else reading it. But um there's a line that I've just listened to that Cassiopeia says which is like in our family even jewellery is political and so that is silver I think in in this it's it's a it's a it looks like the light on water. It's a signifier of like the sea it's supposed to show that Cassiopeia is um you know crowning her daughter with the the the precious metal of somewhere else like she's prepared to give her away for power for politics for ascension um so I think that's kind of what Silver does it like sets Andromeda apart from her home and kind of foreshadows the fact that that is her future being set apart from her home.

SPEAKER_03 42:22

Right let's get into this because I met a Charlotte and I was like right I've got a theory but I have there's that there are two possibilities I think at the party where Cassia Pia makes the comment about Andromeda being more beautiful she makes a point of Andromeda wearing silver jewellery and let me just find the page where is it 200 and oh we've been discussing this yeah yeah yeah I'm glad and I I do have an issue with one of the love interests but not for the reason you may think oh I'm so excited okay wait why is it not on the page that I made note of okay I can't find the page but it's does she make the comment of Andromeda being more beautiful deliberately to attract Poseidon's attention and the silver and the page I was trying to find Sito makes a comment about the Poseidon or is she doing it because then other men will look at her and think oh wow she is more beautiful and give her better marriage options but I thought it was because she wants Poseidon's attention in my head she wants Poseidon's attention.

SPEAKER_01 43:27

I feel so validated in my right that's that's in my head but look up for interpretation I'm not death of the author do you know what I mean but like how how the only thing that I could conclude having trawled through this story in all of its versions multiple times is that if you're gonna if you're gonna if you're gonna call if you're gonna have the God of the sea's name in your mouth you're doing it for a really good reason. And I just do not buy that Cassiopeia would be that stupid and so for me she does she does it on purpose and that's and I think that's why Kiraway So mad because Akiraway knows she did it on purpose too. But she's like, You're so dumb. Like, like Cassiopeia is always thinking, What can I do to make Andromeda the most powerful, the most revered, whatever? And Akiraway is like, I promise you, you don't want that. Like, I promise you, like the best thing we can give her is like a safe, quiet life, and that's where they they butt heads. But yeah, in my head, she does. But if people interpret it differently, that's totally fine as well. I just have images. I thought it was on purpose.

SPEAKER_02 44:29

I just have images of everyone watching that scene kind of play out in slow motion, being like, Are you dumb?

SPEAKER_00 44:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah. For real. For real. What are you doing, girl?

SPEAKER_01 44:39

Shh. Hey, she says it with chest. With chest, with chest.

SPEAKER_03 44:48

Is there something in your Andromeda respecting those who would protect her? Because there's a point after some men get a little bit touchy-feely, and this happens really early, where she notes that her father cannot or would not protect her, but she thinks that Phineas would. Yeah. And then later we see something really extreme when Cito protects her. Yeah. And she chops that guy's hands off, which you know deserved. And it kind of goes again goes with our traditional idea of her being a damsel in distress and Perseus rescuing her. And at the one moment where her dad should be like, take anything else, but not my daughter, he's like, Yeah, okay. Totally.

SPEAKER_01 45:28

Yeah, for sure. I think I think it's been impressed upon Andromeda from a very young age. That like, and I think that that early scene where she's like, I'm in my own home in front of my dad, and I'm not even fully safe here, and this is my most safe place, really. Um, and so that that feel and and and the weight of always being looked at and and perceived, and that how that also would make you feel unsafe. Um, I just think that she's always a little bit on edge. And and the idea that she could be with that that she could be around someone that would make sure that like, yeah, no, no harm befalls her is is probably really reassuring to her. Um that sort of changes, I think, as she gets older and starts to figure herself out a bit more and she finds ways that she can keep herself safe. It isn't in the traditional, you know, swords and shields way, but it's by being a little bit like her mother, a little bit canny, a little bit manipulative, a little bit shrewd by playing the game slightly.

SPEAKER_03 46:32

This is why he's such a pussy, because if right if you think that it's what it comes down to is that Andromeda is going to be prized for her purity, these creepy men groping at her like that, it could be so easy for it to just go that little bit too far and then she's not pure anymore. And then, you know what, what's your daughter worth then? Probably not much because this is a world where virginity is prized.

SPEAKER_01 46:58

For sure, and there's a moment where one of the men says, like, come on, we won't spoil her. And Andromeda has this realization that there are ways of her virginity being technically kept intact, and and actually, and like, yeah, I think that she's also done that thing of like, my virginity, my virginity, like that's it's fine, that'll keep me safe. And then she has this moment of realizing, like, oh, there are still terrible things that can happen to me, and my virginity remains intact, and and and then realizing, oh, it really is just up to whether or not my dad is gonna like say anything, and oh my god, my dad's a pussy, he's not gonna say anything. Like the fear of of that moment, um, yeah, I think comes from her she begins to realize that all of the all of the guardrails, all of the things that she thinks are in place to keep her safe are kind of just illusion, like they're smoke and mirrors.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

And this is why, ladies, we choose the bear.

SPEAKER_01 47:54

This is why we choose the bear or the giant sea monster.

SPEAKER_02 48:00

I I did take it though as not to make it okay, obviously, it's not okay, but I took it as her dad's not present, he's drunk, he's not paying attention. Totally so she's probably like, oh yeah, whatever. Yeah, for sure. Not even paying attention to what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

Yeah, for sure. But this is my beef with like a lot of so, for example, Pride and Prejudice, right? Mr. Bennett's character. I think Mr. Bennett gets a lot of defenders because it's like, oh, he's just too busy reading his books, he's just doing his thing, like, and it's like, no, your job as a father is to be present, your job as a father is to protect your children, particularly in a violently patriarchal site society when you have daughters. That is your job. And yeah, like I I'm such a Mr. Bennett hater, and yeah, Sephie I sort of see him in a similar light of he thinks he can be absent because he's never thinking about you know the safety of women because it doesn't affect him, you know. Because to in his mind, he doesn't need to think about it, he doesn't think he needs to think about it, no, and that's why Cassio Payer is the way she is, because she really is thinking about it, she's acutely aware.

SPEAKER_02 49:08

And talking about Andromeda's father, Phineas is very pointedly the opposite, yeah. And you did not need to kill him off. I'm sorry, I'm not friends with you right now. Because also that kind of did. He's not even her love interest anymore. So you did it for absolutely no reason.

SPEAKER_01 49:27

I kind of had to do it because so Phineas is a fun one because so in the original myth, he's this like lecherous old uncle, and I've also I'm I'm sure there are gonna be people that are annoyed that I changed that again. Whatever. I have a book deal, you don't shut up. Um and the reason I changed it honestly was because I was like, I just I'm kind of sick personally of seeing black men always depicted as sexual predators. Like I was just tired of that. I was like, I'm not doing it, I just refuse. Um, so I wanted to, and I and I wanted as much as I joke about men shutting up, I didn't want all the men in this to be terrible, you know. Um I wanted some nuance, I wanted a bit of light and shade. And for me, um, yeah, Phineas is very different to his brother and represents a kind of alternative and and uh that quiet, safe way of life that could have been Andromeda's. Um, but you know, that's not what was meant for her. She's ruler of men, she was never gonna have a quiet, safe life when you have a name like that. Um so but I kind of did need to kill him off because because there were there would there were just too many options suddenly, you know what I mean? Like fate fate would not allow that, fate would not allow him to be an option, and you know, Andromeda had had kind of taken the piss and the gods don't like it when you do that, so there had to be a reckoning, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 51:02

Okay, so romantic scenes.

SPEAKER_01 51:06

Yeah, because also you've said there's a love interest that you have beef with, and I want to know why and who.

SPEAKER_02 51:10

Well Sito, but not because monster also I presume Sito is female, but then I text Lauren and went, I'm presuming this monster's uh pronouns.

SPEAKER_00 51:21

Yeah, yeah, no, no, she's a she.

SPEAKER_02 51:23

Um not but not because of that. Okay. Tell me this. Why did when Andrew Andromeda finally get her period, did Sito then use it to entertain herself?

SPEAKER_01 51:40

What when?

SPEAKER_02 51:42

It's I'd go to see if I can find it, but there's no doubt it does happen.

SPEAKER_01 51:46

Well, they're period sex.

SPEAKER_02 51:47

Yeah, no, but like not just period sex.

SPEAKER_01 51:51

What? Like she goes, she's on the fingers and the finger side. She's on the finger side.

SPEAKER_02 51:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:56

Yeah.

unknown 51:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:58

Uh what? Like what you mean, like, why did she give her head when she was on her period?

SPEAKER_03 52:02

No, no, no. Why does she then use the blood to entertain herself? Fingerous. Oh. If we're gonna be blunt about it.

SPEAKER_01 52:11

Um okay, so many reasons. So many reasons. Number one, like, I'm just a bit fucked up.

unknown 52:18

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 52:18

I just thought it was kind of hot. I'm not gonna lie to you. I thought it was kind of hot. Um, it's also, but like, you know, my literary answer is I wanted to, it's it's like earlier in the story, we have this oath made, and it's like blood and icor and and a mixture of those things, and I wanted that moment to be like an imitation of the oath, so like like blood and fluid and but like it the the vow they're making is like to each other with their bodies in like sex. Do you see what I mean? So that was that's that's how Sito makes a vow, you know?

SPEAKER_02 53:01

And it reminded me of I'm I May Destroy You where after they have sex, he's very the the male is very intrigued by the the blood clots and he like picks them up and he's like, What is this?

SPEAKER_01 53:18

And that is also a thing, is like you know, Seto doesn't have periods, so like there's all like and also like she's just not like grossed out by period blood because it's period blood and also human because she's not human and also it's just blood, you know what I mean? Blood is just blood, like she eats people, yo, you know what I mean? Like she she she literally eats people, so she's just like cool, like you're like more stuff your body does, sick, love it.

SPEAKER_02 53:46

Like what what I did like in your story and the romantic scenes are asking for consent because that's not something that we see in many Greek myths.

SPEAKER_01 53:57

No, it's not, is it? Also, consent is so sexy, right? Like, consent is sexy, consent is so sexy. Um, yeah, a big fan of consent.

SPEAKER_02 54:08

So, is that why it was important for you to to include it?

SPEAKER_01 54:12

For sure. I think it's it again that idea of like subverting people's expectations. We don't see it a lot in Greek myths. I also just think like what was really important for me, if we're gonna get into like the nitty-gritty of the sex scenes, because I thought about them a lot, um, is I wanted to have like quite explicit on the page women having sex with women, because I feel like often when I read often like women having sex with women is either like fade to black or it feels a bit fetishistic or it's very male gaze, and like as a queer woman, I wanted to write sex between women right. That was really important to me. I wanted it to be sexy, I wanted it to be hot because I think that queer women deserve that in their literature, but I also wanted it to feel kind of real and like you do talk during sex, you do ask, is this okay? And are you have like you're always checking in with each other to make sure you're both having a good time, and so that was also important to me as well that like they feel really connected, it is really titillating, but they're also being really vulnerable with each other. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:22

If we're getting into the nitty-gritty, I mean I don't know if I loved or hated the good girl thing because I'm like, part of me thinks that's so hard, but also you're saying it to someone who's literally eaten people in the point.

SPEAKER_01 55:34

No, I think it's the point, and that's why because no one has ever told Seto she's a good girl, no one ever says that to her. That's why it's like, and I think it comes from like there's a moment earlier where because the whole thing with Seto as well is like, and I I just I love her so much, but the whole thing with her as well is like she is also lonely, she is also singular, but in a different way to Andromeda. Like she's kind of been neglected, you know. She she's never really been like loved. Like Andromeda, despite everything, is loved. Like Cassiope Cassiopeia loves her, Akiraway loves her, like she is loved. Whereas Seto never really experiences that, like Amphitrite kind of loves her, but like that's her sister, like she kind of loves her, but but she's never experienced like being cared for, and that's something that Andromeda can give her, and like in those moments where they're together, and you know, Seto gets to like live in a house and be pampered and have someone like Akiraway braid her hair and tell her that she's wonderful, like she's never had that like comfort before, and so there's this moment where she brings Akiraway a gift, and Akiraway's like, You're such a good girl, like in a very grandmotherly way. And Andromeda clocks that she loves it and is like, she does. Um I'm gonna remember that.

SPEAKER_03 56:50

I so we were talking about um protection and Andromeda feeling protected and needing that, and obviously, Seto is someone that can give her that, and I love that Andromeda doesn't really have much in terms of physical strength, but what she can do is give her that nurturing that she's not had, and I was like, Oh, I quite like this that you're it's a very give and take relationship between the two of them, and they both love giving, as we see, and I think that's that's so nice that she almost sees missing things for Seto and gives that to her, and I think that's really lovely.

SPEAKER_01 57:25

Yeah, I think that's what it is to be loved, right? Like to be seen and to have your needs met, and that's what they do for each other. Being told you're a good girl, being told you're a good girl, and all and I think that like again, if we're gonna get really into it, like I I often think that what we seek sexually is what we're missing in our day-to-day lives, right? And like Andromeda never gets to feel powerful, she never gets to build feel strong or in charge, and so she's a Dom. Because because she never gets to be. She just wants to boss someone around, let a girl live.

SPEAKER_02 58:02

And another lover that she gets is is Perseus. So he lives in the story, but at quite a dramatic emotional time for Andromeda. Yeah, and he's actually that scene is actually relatively short. What I liked about it is that he actually treated her quite well. Obviously, obviously he takes her away and and and does all that kind of stuff, but he tr he does treat her quite well and he clearly cares about his mother and he cares about women, and he makes you know, he makes reference to his stepfather or would-be stepfather not treating women well.

SPEAKER_01 58:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:42

Um he is young and and a bit arrogant and and gets carried away with, like you said, he's imperfect, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:49

He's a bit of a himbo, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:51

But eventually, once Andromeda kind of processes everything that happened, does she does he remind her of Phineas?

SPEAKER_01 59:01

See, I'd never even thought about that, but yeah, that's such a great point. Um yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think he I was really like I said, I had a lot of fun writing Perseus. Um the way that I took their relationship in general was not this negative, you know, they they have this, they found this dynasty together essentially. Um it was never believable to me based on the bits of story that we have that she was like initially madly in love with him because he meets her in a moment of trauma, whether that's my version of it or the classical versions of it where she's about to be murdered, her mother's dead, and he rescues her. He meets her in a moment of trauma, she doesn't really have a ton of options, and he marries her. So yeah, the sort of idea that there was a kind of love at first sight thing there sat weird with me just because I d I'm like she's traumatized. Um but I do I do think there's something about his character, you know, Perseus' whole um adventure is you know in pursuit of the answer to the question, how can I protect my mother? That's his whole motivation, and so there is something in that to me that signals that he's a kind of good guy, even though I know a lot of people have very strong feelings about Perseus, both positive and negative. But yeah, how I interpreted it is um he wants to make sure his mum is safe, he's a bit of a himbo, um, but his intentions are good, and I think that yeah, I think that there are moments that definitely echo what she expected from her life with Phineas, like when we kind of see her in the markets and stuff. So yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:58

One thing I found really unique about your retelling is the way that you treat Percy as having illegitimate children. Because I feel like in Greek myth, it's when men have children outside of marriage, it's supposed to either paint them in a really negative way or it paints their spouses, like Zeus is doing bad things, but here it also does bad things. So we look at both of them in such a negative way. But the way you approach it with him and Andromeda, it just works for them, and both of them are really kind to his illegitimate children. So, what made you do that is that just going with he's a good guy and a bit of a himbo, so it just makes sense that he would.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:39

I think I it's not like look, I kind of think it's more a testament to Andromeda as a character than than Perseus, really. Perseus, I do like he I just think of him as yes, such a golden retriever, and I just think he wants everyone to get along, and he I because he has this impulse to protect his mother, for me, yeah, as I said, like that kind of created this character that is does have a kindness to him for sure. Um, and Andromeda, I think, you know, he isn't her great love, so she doesn't like she comes to love him, she comes to feel very fond of him. Um, but I don't think she necessarily feels like possessive of him in the way that maybe other people would. Um, all she kind of cares about is that he's being kind to the women that he's sleeping with. It's imperfect and problematic, certainly, because they are still enslaved. Um, but that contextually makes sense in the story. And Andromeda isn't, you know, she's not some um great overthrower of systems, she's someone that tries to make the best out of what she has, and that's kind of always that's that's who she is in the story, you know. That's how I've written her and what really made sense for her given where she starts and kind of where she goes. Um, and so the best that she can hope for is that he be kind, and when she's assured that he is, she's like, then chill, like I don't think that either of them think of monogamy like maybe other characters in Greek myth or in love stories would think of monogamy. Um, because as you know, she is aware that she has this great love and that and she's also capable of loving Perseus, and she has loads of kids and she loves all of them equally, and she isn't someone that believes that you can only love one person, so she's like I I think that I think that she just comes to be like I'm choosing peace, and uh if this is what peace is, then whatever, like it's okay. Um, but I just want a bit of quiet. I'm not gonna argue with you about the kids, everyone's fine.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:05

There's a reference that 21 years old is very old too, have not had a child yet. But in other aspects, people seem to take into account that she's doing things later. Like, and we do find out that there is some divine help here, yeah. And obviously, Andromeda takes things into her own hands to delay, but having her first period. She does. So is it surprising that she's a bit older to have her first child when you take all of this into consideration?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:34

I think the they're not surprised, but they're still mutterings, right? They're like, okay, like she's kind of descended from divinity, things work a bit differently for her, but like, is this this is still like not normal? Like, this is still and like that, and when it when it in in the sort of later part of the book when she doesn't conceive for a while, it's I think it's less like surprise and more just like Perseus being a bit petulant, like, oh, but I want a son now. Like, why why don't I have one yet? Like, so I think that it's um it's less that it's surprising and more that Perseus is impatient to like get on with that part of his life where he gets to be a father and you know have all of his princes filling his kiss his castle.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:25

I do like, and you are continuing this, but we are seeing female authors including things like contraception and periods in books, and it's discussed very openly and without shame, and that is something that is so nice to see represented on page. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:44

Yeah, of course. I mean it it's just normal, isn't it? It's just part of life. So um I'm never gonna shy away from stuff like that. Uh life's too short.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:56

Well, a lot of the time it's talked about quite matter of factly. And you know, Poseidon makes this deal that he's not going to do anything until she's had her first blood. But I want to ask about how you feel how you think Amphitrite feels in this moment because she's due to be married to Poseidon, and she's now being told that actually maybe this there's someone who is even better looking than you, and you can be discarded.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:25

Yeah, I think that um Amphitrite uh I mean she's obviously pissed, she's obviously not happy about it. I think that in my conception of her, she's been kind of raised all her life knowing that she's the most beautiful of her sisters and therefore uh she'll be queen of the sea. Uh so she is not expecting to be kind of usurped at the last moment. Um and uh yeah, she's just she's not happy about it at all. Um and she it's why she kind of does what she does in terms of helping ish Andromeda because she's like, Well, if if there can be a way that I can still get my throne, that's what I want. And she's better suited to it as well. And everyone and like everyone that knows the nature of Poseidon knows that she's better suited to it because you know she's lived in the sea, it's it's already her home. She knows exactly what she's getting herself into, um, and she wants it. So um, yeah, she's she's she's not happy. She's an interesting one, Amphitrite, because she has this dual like she's very cold and removed, and she's been raised for this one thing, kind of like a and a foil to Andromeda, but unlike the rest of her sisters, um she kind of look looks out for Seto in a in a in a way. Um their their bond was interesting to write.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:56

I did find it interesting the discussions about uh the sisters and the sisterhood. You know, we know Seto has 49 sisters, one of which is a tritey.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:07

But does uh Andromeda ask about them because she's curious about Seto, or is it more that she's an only child and she's got an image of how a family should be? So when it's when she gets back that it's not like that, she seems a bit confused.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:23

Yeah, it's definitely I think it's a bit of both. Like she's just fascinated by Seto, Seto's not like anyone she's ever met before. So she just wants to know more about her. She's all the stories she's heard of you know, Poseidon's Kingdom are, you know, are kind of second, third hand stories, so she kind of wants to know what it's like. She's fascinated, and yeah, also sisters fascinate her. The concept of sisters and siblings fascinates her, and she's seen sisters at court, and she's seen the way that they're mean to each other one minute but love each other the next, and competitive with each other but protective of each other, and the dynamic is is really interesting. So she kind of assumes that that's what Seto's life is like, and then when she realizes that actually like it isn't like that, she I think it really makes Seto a more vulnerable character to her, and I think that she uh maybe up until then had assumed that Seto was so invulnerable, you know, she's a monster and she you know, she's this vicious, powerful creature, um but actually beneath all she's just like another lonely girl, like it's really and that's the thing that draws them together is the realisation that they're both just two lonely girls, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:35

Was your plan uh to always have Sito and Andromeda fall in love? Or did that kind of evolve? And also the ending, because as far as we know, she dies and then they're reunited at the end.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:48

So so yes, it was always my plan because um in the sky, the where the constellations are, the Setus is next to Andromeda, and I just again with my quet line of questioning, I was like, why why would if this was just some monster that tried to kill her, why is she next to her in the sky? If Andromeda was put in the sky out of like, you know, respect and reverence of who she was and you know, testament to her life and her suffering and all she lost and the dynasty that she founded and all her kids and being a great queen, blah blah blah, why was she then put in the sky next to the monster that tried to eat her? Like that just didn't add up for me, and so I was like, Yeah, so that didn't add up for me. Then I went and did some research, and there are a few other set settos in mythology. There's obviously Echidna's mom who's the mother of monsters, and then there are a couple of settos referenced in various texts as being there's an oceanid called Seto and there's an Araid called Seto, and I thought, like, well what if what if the Seto that is the monster is also an Araid? Like, what if what if you know there's this there's this lineage of um you know uh sea dwelling creatures? Um sometimes, for example, like the Titan, Echidna's mom Seto is depicted as a woman, sometimes she's depicted as a monster. Depends who you ask or whose art you're looking at. So I kind of had a similar thought. I was like, what if this Seto? Um why yeah, why is she next to her in the sky? Why why would you do that? So that was the sort of origin of the love story, or at least the spark of it for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:32

Um and you know, me, I'm just like, make everything gayer obviously all the big events happen because Cassio Paya has said this silly thing. The silly, silly thing. And she ends up having to pay hubris, pay for her hubris. Your scene is very visceral and very you know, it it's it's very obviously gory, and yeah, you can just I could just Samantha Shannon told me she had a nightmare after she read it, and that's honestly like the best compliment I've ever had in my life.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:13

I gave Samantha Shannon a nightmare.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:16

That should be one of the quotes. I know. Do you think the punishment fit the crime?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:23

Because she's no, no, no, it's nothing to die. Yeah, Poseidon, but this is also I'm like, that was also my thinking as well, is like, because that is also how she dies in a lot of the she gets like put cut out and put into stars and whatever. So I was like, yeah, punishment doesn't fit the crime. Not that that is like not par for the course for Poseidon, because it is, but it did just also made me make me think like he had he's so mad, like he's so mad. Like, is he gonna be that mad over someone saying that his nymphs aren't the hottest nymphs? Like, really? Is he that mad over that? Does he care that much? So, like, that was also like something I chewed on, and I just thought, like, if he feels like he's been manipulated and tricked and hoodwinked by women, um, then he's really got a point to prove, you know. Um, but no, it the punishment does not fit the crime. But it's Poseidon, you know, he's he's he's a lot.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:23

But how insecure do you have to be?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:27

He is so insecure, yeah. Yeah, and he's so insecure.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:31

It's giving small dick energy, it's giving such small dick energy. It's cold down in the sea, stuff shrink. So obviously Cassia Pia makes a boo-boo, or maybe not, maybe she doesn't because she gets what she wants, which is Poseidon wanting to marry her daughter by insulting him. So if we assume the gods are alive and they can hear us, which one do you think you're gonna act accidentally insult by saying the wrong thing?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:01

Oh, all of them.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:02

Um all the men. Um, who am I gonna accidentally insult? Or which one first? It's a really good question, Wait. Let me think. Who I do I do be running my mouth. Who who am I really gonna piss off? Um To be honest, like I think I'd piss off Hera. I just think that like everything that that she kind of represents as being the right way to be a woman, I don't do. So I just think that she would just take offense to my like existence, to be honest. Um, yeah, I I think probably Hera would have a lot of a lot of harsh words for me.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:53

Normally when we play Shagmary Keel, we have horrible choices, but I think actually our choices are quite good. And I thought we thought you'd get into this. Yeah, absolutely. Tell me. So they're not bad choices, actually, and you might be sad to have to to kill one of them. But we've got Perseus, uh-huh, we've got Tito, and we've got Phineas. Because Poseidon feels like an easy kill, so let's make it harder in a different way.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:15

I mean, with all the love and respect in the world for my little himbo, I'm killing Perseus. Um, and then who am I marrying? Ah, see, like Phineas is such husband material. Um, I actually think I'd marry Phineas because I think I think Phineas might have to be like taught a thing or two about the bedroom, and you need like a marriage to do, you know what I mean? You need a long stretch of time with a guy to do that. But I think he'd I think he'd be a satisfactory lover after a while, but I don't think he'd be a good like one night stand. Setto'd be an amazing one-night stand, so that's probably what I'm saying, yeah. If I just get to shag them once, right, if it's just one time, one time, yeah. Yeah, then I'm picking Setto, yeah. Yeah. I don't think Phineas would be good one time. He'd he'd he'd need to get into it. What about you? Who are you who you shag?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:08

I don't think I could argue with your choice.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:11

Okay, cool, cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:12

We're agreed.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:13

I think so.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:15

I would kill Seto and Shag Perseus. And marry Phineas.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:23

There's some unpicking to do there, I think.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:28

Is it the monster thing? Probably the monster thing. I I do genuinely think with Perseus they they become genuine friends.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:37

Yeah, they do. They have a really sweet relationship.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:39

They have a really sweet relationship. I don't think it's necessarily the perfect marriage.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:45

No. But I think But they find peace, and I think that like, you know, he's just like, you know, I'm really happy, my life is great, I also want you to be happy.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:58

Which is which is nice. And and let's be real, the way you described him, he seems like he's packing.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:05

He is oh he is, yeah, he is. Come on, son of Zeus, son of Zeus, come on.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:13

I might have to kill Seto, but that's only because I don't think our sexual tastes would mesh. I think someone who's a little less subby. Um fair, okay, if she was calling me good girl too, then maybe if we could flip it off, so valid Lauren, then that would be fine.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:32

If Setto was a switch, you'd be on board. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:35

That would be the thing, I think. But apart from that, I think even for like pillow talk, I don't think I could with Perseus.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:45

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:46

You're Perseus anyway. He's him body.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:50

But are you talking?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:52

Depends. Depends where we meet and have this one-night stand. If we're both drunk, then it doesn't matter. But if it's I don't know, like in a book showing for the same book, then not.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:05

Yeah. I don't again though, I don't even know. Is Perseus gonna be good and bad on a one-night stand? I don't know. But do you know what? He would be open to instruction. I do think he'd be open to instruction.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:16

So the fact he spits before he puts it in makes me think he's got a few ideas. Charlotte just cringing at this. But that suggests he has a little idea of a woman's pleasure. That's very true. He doesn't just he doesn't he doesn't just raw dog it.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:32

No, he doesn't. Like he is trying to be helpful.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:34

He is this is the thing with Percy, it's like he has good intentions, he's trying to be helpful. He doesn't always manage it, but his his heart is often in the right place. I sometimes can't believe I've written this book. I'm not a time to not read it.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:47

Like I was just thinking the sound bite. He spits before. But he does. He does, yeah. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. We really enjoyed the book and we've really enjoyed this conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:08

Likewise, I'm so glad you enjoyed the book. It is kind of terrifying that people are reading it now. But I'm glad.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:15

Is there anything you're working on that you're allowed to discuss right now?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:19

I'm not allowed to discuss the things I'm working on. I will say the thing I'm working on, if people are mad about black queer andromeda, they're gonna be really mad about what I'm writing next. I just want to ask interesting questions. You know what I mean? Like, so yeah, I'm writing something, I'm having a lot of fun with it, I'm very excited by it. I think it asks a lot of interesting questions.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:49

I just there's bigger things in the world. Like, come.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:52

Do you know what I mean? Than me and my silly little books. Like, guys, come on.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:58

Well, it's all that, you know, it's all of that um backlash about Helen being cast. Oh, don't get me started. The woman is meant to be hatched from a swan egg.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:10

And and this is the thing that I cannot take is when people start talking about accuracy, forgetting for a moment that this isn't history, it's myth, and myths get retold. And the whole point of these myths is that they get retold in lots of different ways. There is no consistency, like the changes get made all the time to these stories. But when people start talking about accuracy, and she was hatched from an egg. And I'm like, if you want accurate, do you want her to have feathers? Is that what you're after? As long as they're not black feathers, as long as they are white feathers. God forbid she'd be a black swan.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:48

This might be a really like dumb observation, but considering all of the shit going on in the world right now, is it flattering in a what in a weird way that people have actually taken the time and energy to give you shit? I mean, yeah. That you've done this.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:03

There's a little bit of me that's like, Alexa, play obsessed with me. Like, why are you so obsessed with me? Um, it is a bit flattering. I think good art causes conversation, and you're never gonna write something that everybody likes. If you did, it'd probably be really boring. Um, my hope always is that what I write encourages curiosity. I always want people to approach things with an open mind. Um, I like generating conversation. I hope those conversations are fruitful and interesting, and you know, I hope that the people that need this book and and and understand what I'm trying to do find it. And that's kind of all you can hope for, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:42

And one day a child is gonna walk into a bookshop and see your cover and feel seen.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:47

Yeah, that's that's the joy. That's the joy.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:53

Where can people find you, follow you, and keep up to date with this new book that's gonna really piss people off that you can't talk about?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:01

Um, I'm at McLeodmouth, so M-C-L-E-O-D mouth on all social media, like loudmouth, but McLeod Mouth. That's brilliant. Thank you. And you can that's where I am, that's who I am everywhere. So yeah, TikTok, Instagram, come say hi, buy my book. You you know the drill.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:21

Well, the most important it's interview question is where can people buy this book?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:26

Basically everywhere, but I'm a big fan of supporting independent bookstores, so always pro doing that. Um, when does this episode come out? Probably release week. Okay, cool. Um, yeah, so yeah, independent bookstores um are always great, but literally everywhere. Um, Waterstones, etc.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:47

Thank you so much for coming and discussing everything sex, black andromeda, uh, gossiping, women empowerment, and men shutting up and preserving some tech energy.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:03

Thank you so much for having me. This has been so much fun.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:12

Thanks for hanging out with us today. As you can tell, we had the best time with Ella, and we cannot wait to see what this new book is that is gonna piss even more people off. Literally on the edge of our seat. Follow us at D Myth Pod on Instagram. I've been Lauren, she's been Charlotte, and today we've been making men shut up and turning pages with Ella McLeod.